{"id":12978,"date":"2024-02-21T15:27:00","date_gmt":"2024-02-21T15:27:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/?p=12978"},"modified":"2024-02-22T15:56:46","modified_gmt":"2024-02-22T15:56:46","slug":"the-power-of-data-vertexs-approach-to-keeping-pace-with-tax-changes-with-mike-bernard","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/the-power-of-data-vertexs-approach-to-keeping-pace-with-tax-changes-with-mike-bernard\/","title":{"rendered":"The Power of Data: Vertex\u2019s Approach to Keeping Pace with Tax Changes with Mike Bernard"},"content":{"rendered":"\n[et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; background_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;7px||5px|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_row column_structure=&#8221;3_5,2_5&#8243; make_equal=&#8221;on&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|desktop&#8221; padding_top_bottom_link_1=&#8221;false&#8221; padding_top_bottom_link_2=&#8221;false&#8221; padding_left_right_link_1=&#8221;true&#8221; padding_left_right_link_2=&#8221;true&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; background_position=&#8221;top_center&#8221; width=&#8221;100%&#8221; max_width=&#8221;100%&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0|0|0|10%|false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;|0%||0%||true&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; animation_style=&#8221;slide&#8221; animation_direction=&#8221;bottom&#8221; animation_intensity_slide=&#8221;1%&#8221; use_custom_width=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit=&#8221;off&#8221; custom_width_percent=&#8221;100%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;3_5&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;8vw||80px|&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;|10%||10%||true&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; padding_tablet=&#8221;|10%||10%||true&#8221; padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221; padding_phone=&#8221;|10%||10%||true&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2 style=\"text-align: center;\">The Power of Data: Vertex\u2019s Approach to Keeping Pace with Tax Changes with Mike Bernard<\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_video src=&#8221;https:\/\/youtu.be\/r9G1_vGSfF0&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_video][et_pb_code _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<div style=\"width: 100%; height: 200px; margin-bottom: 20px; border-radius: 6px; overflow: hidden;\"><iframe class=\"lazyload\" style=\"width: 100%; height: 200px;\" frameborder=\"no\" scrolling=\"no\" allow=\"clipboard-write\" seamless data-src=\"https:\/\/player.captivate.fm\/episode\/abd850d0-6df4-4410-9073-724068d1c862\"><\/iframe><\/div>[\/et_pb_code][\/et_pb_column][et_pb_column type=&#8221;2_5&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;8vw|5%||5%&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;8vw|10%||10%||true&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; padding_tablet=&#8221;8vw|10%||10%||true&#8221; padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221; padding_phone=&#8221;8vw|10%||10%||true&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; text_font_size=&#8221;15px&#8221; text_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; link_font=&#8221;||||on||||&#8221; link_text_color=&#8221;#ffffff&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_4_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_4_text_color=&#8221;#1a1844&#8243; header_4_line_height=&#8221;1.8em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h4>Hosts &amp; Guests<\/h4>\n<p>Judy Vorndran, <span>Partner, State and Local Tax<\/span><\/p>\n<p>Meredith Smith, State and Local Tax Senior Manager<\/p>\n<p>Mike Bernard, <span>VP of Tax Content and Chief Tax Officer at Vertex<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><\/span><\/p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; admin_label=&#8221;Header&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; background_enable_image=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax=&#8221;on&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0px||||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px||0||false|false&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221;][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; admin_label=&#8221;Episode Details&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#e8e8e8&#8243; background_color_gradient_direction=&#8221;90deg&#8221; parallax=&#8221;on&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;80px|0px|80px|0px|true|false&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221;][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_width_px__hover=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_px__hover_enabled=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover=&#8221;80%&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover_enabled=&#8221;80%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; use_custom_width__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; width_unit__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; gutter_width__hover=&#8221;3&#8243; gutter_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;3&#8243; parallax_1__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover_enabled=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_end__hover=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_end__hover_enabled=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_position__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_direction__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover_enabled=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; parallax__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_repeat__hover=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_blend__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; background_blend__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; border_radii__hover=&#8221;on||||&#8221; border_radii__hover_enabled=&#8221;on||||&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover_enabled=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_saturate__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_saturate__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_invert__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_invert__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_blur__hover=&#8221;0px&#8221; filter_blur__hover_enabled=&#8221;0px&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; animation_repeat__hover=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_duration__hover=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease&#8221; background_color_gradient_stops__hover=&#8221;#2b87da 0%|#29c4a9 100%&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2><strong>What You Will Discover:<\/strong><\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; ul_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; ul_font_size=&#8221;16px&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<p><span>In this episode of the SALTovation podcast, we speak with Mike Bernard, VP of Tax Content and Chief Tax Officer at Vertex, a global provider of indirect tax software solutions. As tax complexities increase and technology advances, Mike shares his invaluable insights drawn from his vast experience in the tax domain. We delve into the role of a Chief Tax Officer at a software company, the importance of understanding clients&#8217; unique needs, and the challenges of implementing and upgrading tax technology. Mike also shares insights on the future of sales tax compliance and the work Vertex does to advocate for administrative ease and efficiency in tax policy.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_width_px__hover=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_px__hover_enabled=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover=&#8221;80%&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover_enabled=&#8221;80%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; use_custom_width__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; width_unit__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; gutter_width__hover=&#8221;3&#8243; gutter_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;3&#8243; parallax_1__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover_enabled=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_end__hover=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_end__hover_enabled=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_position__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_direction__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover_enabled=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; parallax__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_repeat__hover=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_blend__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; background_blend__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; border_radii__hover=&#8221;on||||&#8221; border_radii__hover_enabled=&#8221;on||||&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover_enabled=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_saturate__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_saturate__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_invert__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_invert__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_blur__hover=&#8221;0px&#8221; filter_blur__hover_enabled=&#8221;0px&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; animation_repeat__hover=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_duration__hover=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease&#8221; background_color_gradient_stops__hover=&#8221;#2b87da 0%|#29c4a9 100%&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2><strong>Topics Discussed in this Episode:<\/strong><\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; ul_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; ul_font_size=&#8221;16px&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<ul>\n<li>Mike brings a wealth of experience from his background as US Tax Counsel at Microsoft and now as Chief Tax Officer at Vertex.<\/li>\n<li>Vertex Inc. prioritizes staying current with tax updates through monthly data updates and maintaining solid professional relationships with Departments of Revenue.<\/li>\n<li>The conversation highlights the importance of adaptable tax software in handling various sales scenarios, including bundles and emerging digital assets like NFTs and cryptocurrencies.<\/li>\n<li>The need for upfront investment in understanding business systems to create efficient and compliant tax reporting solutions.<\/li>\n<li>Engagement with Multi-State Tax Commissions and Departments of Revenue helps Vertex in navigating and influencing the administrative aspect of evolving tax policies without direct lobbying.<\/li>\n<\/ul>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_width_px__hover=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_px__hover_enabled=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover=&#8221;80%&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover_enabled=&#8221;80%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; use_custom_width__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; width_unit__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; gutter_width__hover=&#8221;3&#8243; gutter_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;3&#8243; parallax_1__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover_enabled=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_end__hover=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_end__hover_enabled=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_position__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_direction__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover_enabled=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; parallax__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_repeat__hover=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_blend__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; background_blend__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; border_radii__hover=&#8221;on||||&#8221; border_radii__hover_enabled=&#8221;on||||&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover_enabled=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_saturate__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_saturate__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_invert__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_invert__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_blur__hover=&#8221;0px&#8221; filter_blur__hover_enabled=&#8221;0px&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; animation_repeat__hover=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_duration__hover=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease&#8221; background_color_gradient_stops__hover=&#8221;#2b87da 0%|#29c4a9 100%&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2><strong>Quotables:<\/strong><\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; ul_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; ul_font_size=&#8221;16px&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<ul>\n<li>\u201cOne thing that you find out at Vertex when you serve a larger community of customers is that you have to come with this idea that they&#8217;re all on their technology journey. Nobody&#8217;s ever the same. Even though they may be in the retail business as an industry, or they may be in oil and gas, or they may be in leasing, or they may be in financial services, they&#8217;re all at a different place as you move along their journey as to how technologically capable they are of serving not just their internal corporation, but their customers.\u201d -Mike Bernard [07:49]<\/li>\n<li>\u201cYou always have to gauge yourself and give them the ability to move up or move down wherever they&#8217;re at in that space and serve them the best that you can. some clients require a more handheld type of service and others, you can put things out there and give them a direction. then check back with them in a week and they will have accomplished some of the things that they set out to do.\u201d -Mike Bernard [12:10]<\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<ul><\/ul>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; custom_width_px__hover=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_px__hover_enabled=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover=&#8221;80%&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover_enabled=&#8221;80%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; use_custom_width__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; width_unit__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; gutter_width__hover=&#8221;3&#8243; gutter_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;3&#8243; parallax_1__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover_enabled=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_end__hover=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_end__hover_enabled=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_position__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_direction__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover_enabled=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; parallax__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_repeat__hover=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_blend__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; background_blend__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; border_radii__hover=&#8221;on||||&#8221; border_radii__hover_enabled=&#8221;on||||&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover_enabled=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_saturate__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_saturate__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_invert__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_invert__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_blur__hover=&#8221;0px&#8221; filter_blur__hover_enabled=&#8221;0px&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; animation_repeat__hover=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_duration__hover=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease&#8221; background_color_gradient_stops__hover=&#8221;#2b87da 0%|#29c4a9 100%&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2><strong>Relevant Links:<\/strong><\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; ul_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; ul_font_size=&#8221;16px&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;||0px|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<p><span style=\"font-size: large;\">Subscribe on your favorite podcast app <a href=\"https:\/\/truthwork.slack.com\/archives\/D03426YPV5Z\/p1689255898860749\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">here<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: large;\">Follow us on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/company\/201050\/admin\/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">LinkedIn<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UCMB1ZQNGXM_F777SIEl8Vjw\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">YouTube<\/a>.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-size: large;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/taxops.com\/contact\/\" rel=\"noopener noreferrer\" target=\"_blank\">Talk to a Tax Advocate Today!<\/a><\/span><\/p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; custom_width_px__hover=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_px__hover_enabled=&#8221;1080px&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover=&#8221;80%&#8221; custom_width_percent__hover_enabled=&#8221;80%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; use_custom_width__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; width_unit__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; gutter_width__hover=&#8221;3&#8243; gutter_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;3&#8243; parallax_1__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_1__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_2__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_3__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_4__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_5__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method_6__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_background_color_gradient__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_start__hover_enabled=&#8221;#2b87da&#8221; background_color_gradient_end__hover=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_end__hover_enabled=&#8221;#29c4a9&#8243; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_color_gradient_overlays_image__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_position__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; animation_direction__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_slide__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_type__hover_enabled=&#8221;linear&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction__hover_enabled=&#8221;180deg&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction_radial__hover_enabled=&#8221;center&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_start_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; background_color_gradient_end_position__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; parallax__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; parallax_method__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; parallax_method__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_repeat__hover=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;no-repeat&#8221; background_blend__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; background_blend__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; allow_player_pause__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover=&#8221;on&#8221; background_video_pause_outside_viewport__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_fullwidth__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; use_custom_gutter__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover=&#8221;off&#8221; make_equal__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; border_radii__hover=&#8221;on||||&#8221; border_radii__hover_enabled=&#8221;on||||&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_style__hover_enabled=&#8221;none&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; box_shadow_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;rgba(0,0,0,0.3)&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_hue_rotate__hover_enabled=&#8221;0deg&#8221; filter_saturate__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_saturate__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_brightness__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_contrast__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_invert__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_invert__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_sepia__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;100%&#8221; filter_blur__hover=&#8221;0px&#8221; filter_blur__hover_enabled=&#8221;0px&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover=&#8221;normal&#8221; mix_blend_mode__hover_enabled=&#8221;normal&#8221; animation_repeat__hover=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_repeat__hover_enabled=&#8221;once&#8221; animation_duration__hover=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;1000ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_zoom__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_flip__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_fold__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_intensity_roll__hover_enabled=&#8221;50%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity__hover_enabled=&#8221;0%&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; animation_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease-in-out&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_duration__hover_enabled=&#8221;300ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_delay__hover_enabled=&#8221;0ms&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover=&#8221;ease&#8221; hover_transition_speed_curve__hover_enabled=&#8221;ease&#8221; background_color_gradient_stops__hover=&#8221;#2b87da 0%|#29c4a9 100%&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2>Transcript<\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.17.4&#8243; text_text_color=&#8221;#000000&#8243; text_font_size=&#8221;15px&#8221; text_line_height=&#8221;2em&#8221; link_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; link_text_color=&#8221;#fe4943&#8243; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; max_width=&#8221;800px&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<div id=\"fbxt-wrap\" >\r\n\t<div id=\"fbxt-wrap--inner\" class=\"fbxt-extra-class\">\r\n\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-header\">\r\n\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-header--logo\">\r\n\t\t\t\t<svg width=\"24\" height=\"25\" viewBox=\"0 0 24 25\" fill=\"none\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<circle opacity=\"0.05\" cx=\"11.6406\" cy=\"12.3918\" r=\"11.6406\" fill=\"#C60808\"\/>\n<path fill-rule=\"evenodd\" clip-rule=\"evenodd\" d=\"M16.6445 10.2899H6.63672V9.04663H16.6445V10.2899Z\"\/>\n<path fill-rule=\"evenodd\" clip-rule=\"evenodd\" d=\"M16.6445 13.3421H6.63672V12.0989H16.6445V13.3421Z\"\/>\n<path fill-rule=\"evenodd\" clip-rule=\"evenodd\" d=\"M12.7025 16.395H6.63672V15.1518H12.7025V16.395Z\"\/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t\t\t<span class=\"fbxt-header-text\">Transcript<\/span>\r\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-header--nav\">\r\n\t\t\t\t<a\r\n\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-header--nav-item fbxt-nav-email\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\thref=\"#\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\tstyle=\"display:none\"\r\n\t\t\t\t>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<svg width=\"16\" height=\"12\" viewBox=\"0 0 16 12\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<path d=\"M14.5 0H1.5C0.65625 0 0 0.6875 0 1.5V10.5C0 11.3438 0.65625 12 1.5 12H14.5C15.3125 12 16 11.3438 16 10.5V1.5C16 0.6875 15.3125 0 14.5 0ZM14.5 1.5V2.78125C13.7812 3.375 12.6562 4.25 10.2812 6.125C9.75 6.53125 8.71875 7.53125 8 7.5C7.25 7.53125 6.21875 6.53125 5.6875 6.125C3.3125 4.25 2.1875 3.375 1.5 2.78125V1.5H14.5ZM1.5 10.5V4.71875C2.1875 5.28125 3.21875 6.09375 4.75 7.3125C5.4375 7.84375 6.65625 9.03125 8 9C9.3125 9.03125 10.5 7.84375 11.2188 7.3125C12.75 6.09375 13.7812 5.28125 14.5 4.71875V10.5H1.5Z\" \/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"fbxt-nav-text\">Email<\/span>\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/a>\r\n\t\t\t\t<a\r\n\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-header--nav-item fbxt-nav-download\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\thref=\"#\"\r\n\t\t\t\t>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<svg width=\"18\" height=\"16\" viewBox=\"0 0 18 16\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<path d=\"M16.5 9H13.5938L15.0625 7.5625C16 6.625 15.3125 5 14 5H12V1.5C12 0.6875 11.3125 0 10.5 0H7.5C6.65625 0 6 0.6875 6 1.5V5H4C2.65625 5 1.96875 6.625 2.9375 7.5625L4.375 9H1.5C0.65625 9 0 9.6875 0 10.5V14.5C0 15.3438 0.65625 16 1.5 16H16.5C17.3125 16 18 15.3438 18 14.5V10.5C18 9.6875 17.3125 9 16.5 9ZM4 6.5H7.5V1.5H10.5V6.5H14L9 11.5L4 6.5ZM16.5 14.5H1.5V10.5H5.875L7.9375 12.5625C8.5 13.1562 9.46875 13.1562 10.0312 12.5625L12.0938 10.5H16.5V14.5ZM13.75 12.5C13.75 12.9375 14.0625 13.25 14.5 13.25C14.9062 13.25 15.25 12.9375 15.25 12.5C15.25 12.0938 14.9062 11.75 14.5 11.75C14.0625 11.75 13.75 12.0938 13.75 12.5Z\" \/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"fbxt-nav-text\">Download<\/span>\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/a>\r\n\t\t\t\t<a\r\n\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-header--nav-item fbxt-nav-new_tab\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\thref=\"#\"\r\n\t\t\t\t>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<svg width=\"14\" height=\"14\" viewBox=\"0 0 14 14\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<path d=\"M12.5 0H1.5C0.65625 0 0 0.6875 0 1.5V12.5C0 13.3438 0.65625 14 1.5 14H12.5C13.3125 14 14 13.3438 14 12.5V1.5C14 0.6875 13.3125 0 12.5 0ZM12.3125 12.5H1.6875C1.5625 12.5 1.5 12.4375 1.5 12.3125V1.6875C1.5 1.59375 1.5625 1.5 1.6875 1.5H12.3125C12.4062 1.5 12.5 1.59375 12.5 1.6875V12.3125C12.5 12.4375 12.4062 12.5 12.3125 12.5ZM10.625 3L6.375 3.03125C6.15625 3.03125 6 3.1875 6 3.40625V4.25C6 4.46875 6.15625 4.65625 6.375 4.625L8.1875 4.5625L3.09375 9.65625C2.9375 9.8125 2.9375 10.0312 3.09375 10.1875L3.8125 10.9062C3.96875 11.0625 4.1875 11.0625 4.34375 10.9062L9.4375 5.8125L9.375 7.625C9.34375 7.84375 9.53125 8 9.75 8H10.5938C10.8125 8 10.9688 7.84375 10.9688 7.625L11 3.375C11 3.1875 10.8125 3 10.625 3Z\" \/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"fbxt-nav-text\">New Tab<\/span>\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/a>\r\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t<\/div>\r\n\r\n\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-content\">\r\n\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-content--inner\">\r\n\t\t\t\t<p><b>0:00:00 Meredith:<\/b> Welcome to SALTovation. The SALTovation show is a podcast series featuring the leading voices in salt, where we talk about the issues and strategies to help you make sense of state and local tax. We want to welcome to the SALTovation show. Today Mike Bernard, chief tax officer at Vertex, a global provider of indirect tax software solutions founded almost 25 years ago. We want to discuss with Mike how Vertex stays up to date on the quickly changing landscape of indirect taxes and what they are keeping their eye on that could potentially upset and impact clients and taxpayers.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:00:38 Meredith:<\/b> We will also discuss Mike\u2019s past roles as us tax counsel for Microsoft, a position where he had a front row seat to rapid changes in technology and how those changes impacted tax reporting. Thank you so much Mike, for being with us today. We really appreciate your time and your brain.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:00:56 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Thank you, Meredith, for being here. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:01:00 Meredith:<\/b> So what exactly does a chief tax officer do for a software company?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:01:08 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. So I\u2019ve had two distinct roles. One when I was at Microsoft and then the other one that I\u2019ve had here at Vertex. So when I was at Microsoft, I actually was leading the functional tax department there, an extensive part of it. So essentially, it\u2019s probably easier just to say the two pieces that I probably wasn\u2019t responsible for. I wasn\u2019t responsible for the foreign subsidiaries, at least the day to day operations of that. And I wasn\u2019t responsible for the global tax policy issues. I was responsible for state tax policy issues.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:01:41 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But everything else I was responsible for, for direct indirect running it, property taxes, business licenses, anything that you can imagine in terms of running a tax department. So that\u2019s essentially what I did for almost 28 years there when I came over to Vertex and Vertex was actually, we used them substantially when I was at Microsoft. And so the chief tax officer role here doesn\u2019t report up through the CFO, which normally chief tax officers do. I actually report into the executive leadership team.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:02:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And what we do there is we actually have about four or five people in our group, senior tax people, either lawyers or accountants or cpas. And essentially what we do is we do a series of things. The most important thing we do is we host about 24 in person events per year with our customers. So we have a lot of enterprise customers, Fortune 200 or Fortune 500 customers, and we run basically kind of a half day program on tax, on what our product management roadmap looks like innovation, and then a lot of table topic discussions around serving them as a good customer, or obviously some best tips about how to keep their tech stack updated and current. So that\u2019s essentially what I did today. So I moved from serving just Microsoft for all of those years, and I had an opportunity to go and work in the transaction tax space, which I\u2019ve always loved, always enjoyed doing that, but also with this idea of emerging technology.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:03:16 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So kind of two different careers, but obviously have enjoyed doing both of those things.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:03:23 Judy:<\/b> How many people were you managing in the tax department for Microsoft? And I assume it was separated by issue, like you have a sales tax team, a property tax team and so forth. About how big was that department overall, aside from Global?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:03:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. So overall, globally it was probably about 80. We had a pretty leveraged model at the time. So we used a lot of big four vendors to actually achieve a lot of things that we needed to get done, at least in the planning space. So the number of people that I was managing was around 35 or so. So I had about 30 sales and use tax and indirect people. I had a technology group, and then I also had folks who were actually doing the state and local returns, tax returns, and then the policy work.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:04:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And then we had five or so people that were pure, just technologists that actually ran our tech stack. So about a range of about 35 or so.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:04:23 Judy:<\/b> And what was the tech stack? Did you use Vertex?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:04:27 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We did use vertex, yeah. That was our preferred provider. We did. We had some other ones too. Okay. And we had some other ones too. But interestingly enough, one of the things that. And we ran on SAP. So one of the interesting things about that that was the most learning that I really got around tech stack was when I was there, I actually did three implementations of vertex and one major. So I actually did a telecom integration because when we bought Skype, I actually had to put that in.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:05:02 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And then we also pulled out the functionality for SAP, for VAT, for Europe. So we were one of the first five companies that actually did something like that. Tax engines were something, as you well know, SAP was a favored provider as it related to VAT calculations. But then that since has changed. So that was the second thing that I put in. The third thing that we put in was towards the last couple years that I was at Microsoft is for years and years you couldn\u2019t go to Microsoft and actually buy anything. You had to buy everything through a channel.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:05:37 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So we actually built the backend functionality for our marketplace. So everything, if we were selling services or hardware or software or learning all of that, we built a back end for that. And then the last piece that I did was a major upgrade on a royalty sub. So in all of that learning, you really kind of learn between what the requirements are, how to serve the business. But then what\u2019s the best functioning tech stack that you can actually build to have, if you will, and you know this, to have kind of frictionless commerce for the customer.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Great learning.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:15 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. And anticipate what could happen. Right. And build something.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:19 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:19 Judy:<\/b> Adapt with you. And then obviously you went from on prem to SaaS cloud that did not exist.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We did. And you know what\u2019s really interesting today, too, is we\u2019ve got a lot of customers and they have an on prem solution. They have a cloud solution. They have mobile, they\u2019re selling through their own marketplace, and then they\u2019re selling through another marketplace. So there are just all these different platforms, as you know, that you never even envisioned that that was even going to happen.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:06:49 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But clearly today technology has enabled all of those things and you got to be pretty nimble to move across all of those, mainly to kind of get all your data together so you can do proper tax reporting. So it\u2019s really challenging for a lot of the companies that we serve.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:07:03 Judy:<\/b> Exactly. Assimilating the data to get the right reporting. Like this is a million comprised of all these pieces. Yeah, no, tech is tech. It\u2019s like, get it out, get it done. Oh, sales tax, whatever. Right. Or reporting. Don\u2019t know. Yeah, it\u2019s really important to understand that. So the reporting is accurate.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:07:21 Meredith:<\/b> Exactly. With those technological shifts being at Microsoft in the leaving 28 years later, how has that kind of ability to be nimble and adapt to those huge technological swings that happened during that 28 year period, how has that kind of helped you, kind of, in your role at Vertex?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:07:46 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. I think one thing that I really have enjoyed being at Vertex, obviously at Microsoft, I had a lot of deep learning at Microsoft, and I talked about that a little earlier. But one thing that you really find out at Vertex when you serve a larger community of customers is that you have to come with this idea that they\u2019re all on their own technology journey. Nobody\u2019s ever the same, and they all have. And even though they may be in the retail business as an industry, or they may be in oil and gas, or they may be in leasing, or they may be in financial services, they\u2019re all at a different place as you move along their journey as to how technologically capable they are of serving not just their internal corporation, but their customers.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:08:35 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so, if you will, you have to take them as they are and then just figure out, like, okay, now, where is it that you really want to go? And I think one of the things that is a common thread that runs through all of that, though, is we at Vertex when we\u2019re hired, we\u2019re there because they\u2019ve selected us to actually help them with their transaction, know their reporting and their tech stack. And so you really have to be very honest with them and understand what their systems are currently and what they\u2019re capable of actually doing moving forward and making themselves more compliant and derisking their environment altogether while at the same time serving their customers well and providing kind of a frictionless experience for their commerce. So you just have to keep in mind that they all move at their own pace.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:09:27 Mike Bernard:<\/b> They all have different funding mechanisms, they have different capabilities just in terms of personnel, but overall, we\u2019re there to kind of help them move along as quickly and as efficiently as they can and.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:09:39 Judy:<\/b> Establishing a good roadmap ahead of time. That I think a lot of other providers out there, they were connector focused, but the service and the technology was not well understood by the buyer. And so we just want to get that message out. And if anything, you buy technologically, you need to make sure it works for you today and tomorrow because ripping and replacing is expensive. But I think a lot of people like just get it done, get it in. Oh, I didn\u2019t think it did the thing because it\u2019s really hard to make all those decisions, especially the larger you are, the more places you\u2019re doing business it is.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:10:11 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And I will tell you, in all of the implementations, the upgrades that I did at Microsoft, the one thing that we\u2019ve always focused on and then we\u2019ve always focused on with customers, and I\u2019ve told them this is we spend a lot of time upfront. Just what you said was about the fact you have to understand what your current system is and you have to understand what are the capabilities. Sometimes you already have capabilities within the current system to do the things you want, and we don\u2019t actually have to make those improvements or add things, modules on or things like that, but you really have to understand what your ERP is capable of doing and just really kind of working with it also, and the tax department obviously, in terms of providing the best and most efficient system. So a lot of time up front making sure we document what the system is capable of doing today.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:11:00 Meredith:<\/b> Currently, I think that\u2019s a good reminder just in general that when you\u2019re kind of in a client service business, right, as vertex is, as we are, is that remembering that no one is the same, and that you do need to remember where people are at and meet them and kind of work with them in the capacity that they have, whether it\u2019s timing, staffing, technology, budget, that, yes, not everyone is the same, and that you need to treat all of the businesses and all of the people that you interact with as if they are their own unique entity, because that\u2019s exactly what they are.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:11:41 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly. I\u2019ve run into engagements when I\u2019ve been here at Vertex where there\u2019s tremendous capabilities within tax and tremendous capabilities within it. And then I\u2019ve run into other companies where you thought they would have people who were more deeply knowledgeable about their tax or their it systems, and they\u2019re not. And so you always have to kind of gauge yourself and involve with them the ability to actually either move up or move down wherever they\u2019re at in that space and actually serve them the best that they can. And so some clients require more handheld type of service, and others, you can put things out there and give them a direction and then check back with them in a week, and they will have accomplished some of the things that they set out to do. So you really have to be very adaptable around all of these engagements.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:12:32 Mike Bernard:<\/b> It\u2019s fun, it\u2019s exciting, and that\u2019s part of what makes it very dynamic.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:12:37 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. And I think about the sales tax compliance team, I feel like a little bit that\u2019s maybe a little bit of a dying career path because there\u2019s a back end automated compliance. If you set up the front end, right, you could just review and not actually do all the returns. But from the legacy sales tax companies that collect sales tax, typically that was done by a human internally. And I was part of what we call the co sourcing movement at Deloitte, where we would take over part and parcel of different functions. And then part of that team went to vertex years ago when we sold it to part of know somewhere else.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:13:10 Judy:<\/b> But I thought part of why we got people to use our service was because people could go on a vacation. All they did was file tax returns all month. Right. It was so many and so much volume and so much data coming in to actually file that return. People can leave between the end of the month and the 20th when those filings were done, and then it started over again. So you found that it was really even a staffing problem.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:13:33 Judy:<\/b> Quite honestly, I found going to market with that for many years at Deloitte, so understanding the client\u2019s challenges, and then people need to go on vacation and have sick time and things happen. And so if you\u2019re really counting on that one human or two humans to do things and you don\u2019t cross train, you\u2019re really going to run up against problems when things are due. So it\u2019s interesting that you manage the manual filing right from the beginning, and then maybe that went to automation. Or you\u2019re like, these people are really good. They know what\u2019s going on this return.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:14:02 Judy:<\/b> They could support my audit, I\u2019m going to keep them until they retire. So, yeah, it\u2019s really been an interesting transition, I think, in the workforce.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:14:10 Mike Bernard:<\/b> No, I think you\u2019re spot on with that comment, because what you\u2019re describing is a single source of failure and a single source of success is what you\u2019re really describing there. And if you think of finance groups and you think of the CFO, one of the things that the CFO is supposed to do is supposed to automate things and derisk any kind of procedures or highly repeatable transactions or functions within the finance group, and that\u2019s one of them. And what was probably a bad term, say, ten years ago, of outsourcing your returns or having a provider do those returns, that was always kind of a scary thing for folks in the tax department today. It\u2019s like table stakes, and you have to actually take everything from everything that is sold to calculating it, or it\u2019s exempt, and then moving it through to the return and then actually storing it. And so all of those things just have to be done. They\u2019re required, and they actually fit the governance model much better than kind of the old way that you were describing there.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:15:12 Judy:<\/b> Well, even for me, I would get a lot of offers to go in house and I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t want to prepare returns solely every month. I want to oversee, I want to manage audits, I want to provide strategic advice. So I could do that better by helping a lot of people than helping one person, unless I go to a very large multinational company. But then once again, you have a group and you have to silo it. And then I also felt like my skills could be helped.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:15:34 Judy:<\/b> Use more. Across the nation, there\u2019s so many people that don\u2019t understand this, especially small to medium business. I mean, even zero to 100 million, they could still be privately held. So you\u2019ve got just a deep disconnect from information. And then even cfos, if you think about a CFO, they come out of the audit team. Typically, you hardly ever see a CFO with a tax background. So you\u2019ve just got a disconnect between the education.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:15:55 Judy:<\/b> I have a master\u2019s of tax, never took a sales tax or state tax class. Federal only. Really? Why is that? Right. So even our education system has been catching up to the state tax, and yet you and I are impacted by that every single day with every transaction we make anywhere. Gas, food, clothing, lodging, rental cars, travel, consumption, taxes are everywhere. And I went to Europe last summer and 17% to 19%, I can\u2019t remember every single invoice that every single one, I\u2019m like 17 to 19 and we\u2019re complaining about eight to ten.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:16:31 Judy:<\/b> Kind of interesting dichotomy that speaks of.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:16:34 Meredith:<\/b> The dynamic nature that you had spoken about earlier. And kind of what we\u2019re seeing right now is the fast paced, just changes, right? Like Wayfair. We had 46 states come on board with wayfair and just things in the sales tax realm and maybe even the broader scope of tax in general. How does vertex stay on top of that fast paced change of rates, holidays, policy stuff that\u2019s happening particularly? I would imagine some stuff is going to come out of a lot of the legislative session this year, being it\u2019s a big kind of presidential election year. So how do you all stay up to date on that just dynamic nature of sales tax, as you all are kind of responsible for making sure that the right rate is being charged when it changes, however often in all of these jurisdictions?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:17:30 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Yeah, so it\u2019s a really good question because every month what Vertex produces what\u2019s called an MDU, a monthly data update, and it is a file that is put out there so that our customers can go out and pull that file down, and it has all the updated rates and rules for that month. So that is just a core piece of our business. We\u2019ve done that now for over 45 years or so, and we\u2019ve never missed posting an update. Obviously, there are some things that kind of can change after the update is posted and we make some changes to that.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:18:04 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So that is like a key piece of what we do. I managed a group for our letter group for a couple of years within Vertex called the tax research group, and we had 110 researchers globally who actually helped us actually keep all of those rates up to date. So if you bought a refrigerator in Seattle or you bought it in Connors, Georgia, or you bought it in Germany, our team was able to actually keep those rates kind of updated along the way.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:18:33 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so we had a lot of research that was actually done using third party researching tools to kind of update that file every month. And I got to tell you, the folks that are in the research group, and this is like the really wonderful thing about them, is we just try to hire people who were either in accounting so they were in big four or they were in industry and they actually did sales tax compliance, or they just have a really good sales tax background. Maybe they worked for the government.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:19:02 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Some of them actually worked in publishing. And they come over. So we have like four or five different varied sets of people who actually do all the research. And I will tell you this, when we go out and we visit with customers in these user groups, which I mentioned earlier, that is one of the folks that the users actually want to talk about first because they always want to know how we do it, and then they secondly also want to know. I think, Meredith, what you were saying was, well, what\u2019s on the horizon? What are the things you guys keep in your eyes on?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:19:33 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And one of the things I think that we\u2019ve definitely tried to do is we have a list of things that we\u2019re looking at today, but there\u2019s also features that have to go into the software, too, say, like bundling. A lot of our customers sell bundles and so you have to pull those bundles apart and tax them properly. A number of them are starting to sell nfts, and so that\u2019s something that we\u2019re looking at. We\u2019re also following the things around crypto and what actually is crypto going to be taxed? And obviously, a lot of states have their eyes on crypto and the NFTs as a source of revenue for transaction tax purposes. So there\u2019s a lot of things that we continue to look at. But again, the core piece of what we\u2019re trying to do is get that monthly update out every month with accurate rates.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:20:18 Judy:<\/b> And we use, we helped a client that sells like bullion gold coins because a lot of people invest in that. And is that currency or is that investment? And is very different across America. And so we help build that for a mitch, it\u2019s amazing what different companies do. You\u2019re like, who would have thought that was a whole business?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:20:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:20:41 Judy:<\/b> Oh, it\u2019s a thing. It\u2019s taxable, right. And of course, there\u2019s only one of them. It\u2019s not like there\u2019s thousands of these rare things. That\u2019s interesting. And they use vertex to deal their sales tax, so we help them kind of get through that. We\u2019ve done a couple of companies in that space.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:20:58 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Great.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:21:00 Meredith:<\/b> Does vertex tend to stay out of kind of policy or kind of lobbying in terms of like the digital ad tax is. That\u2019s footnote. That\u2019s not a policy of vertex. Those are just words that came out of my mouth. Don\u2019t want to get Mike in trouble, but is that something that vertex generally tends to stay silent on, or just kind of like in the background, keep your eye on some of these changes so that you can be ready to go once Maryland makes a decision.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:21:30 Judy:<\/b> Yeah, sure.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:21:32 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So where we try to be is obviously we\u2019re not trying to do direct lobbying around certain things about rates and rules, as you know, that leads to kind of like winners and losers. And we really can. I can\u2019t do that kind of work. What we tend to do is we always tend to think of administrative responsibility and administrative ease and efficiency. So I\u2019ll give you an example. For example, when Wayfair came down, one of the things that we did was we worked extensively with the MTC, the multi state tax commission, which I think a lot of the folks on the podcast kind of know. It\u2019s a group of government people.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:22:09 Mike Bernard:<\/b> It\u2019s big four, it\u2019s companies, and then it\u2019s professional vendors like ourselves who we were advocating for the most administratively responsible and efficient way to actually see how marketplaces were actually. What were they going to be responsible for? Are they going to be responsible for collecting or emitting, for reporting, for audit defense, for all of the things that kind of went into the marketplace facilitator rules. And those rules actually got adopted over the next, say, four or five years.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:22:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But the work that we were doing was trying to make it as efficiently as possible for customers who actually were hosting those kinds of marketplaces, third party marketplaces, and those who are actually selling on the third party of marketplaces. So that\u2019s one place where we\u2019re working at today. I think you know that today there is a multistate tax commission workflow on the sale of digital assets. So around 20 states actually tax, or there\u2019s a sales tax on streaming or learning or some kind of digital or audio or video assets that are sold across the Internet. So there are different approaches as to how sales taxes is imposed on that.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:23:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> What\u2019s the jurisdiction that has the right to do that? So we\u2019re actually working with them, with the multitude tax commission again, to make sure that we have rules that actually are in place to really kind of help with the administrative piece of that. So that\u2019s really where we work know, at least in terms of, if you will, kind of lobbying. That\u2019s where we kind of place ourselves.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:23:52 Judy:<\/b> So you wouldn\u2019t testify?<\/p>\n<p><b>0:23:55 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We haven\u2019t been asked to testify on those things to date, but we\u2019ve always offered to actually do that if it\u2019s ever so. Yes.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:24:05 Judy:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m on the Colorado governor\u2019s task force, a simplified Colorado sales tax. And it\u2019s funny, I thought, I want to say I asked because I\u2019m on the coalition, I sit on the task force, and it\u2019s like getting more people to explain because I believe our legislators at one point said, well, technology, you could just plug it in. It\u2019ll work. I\u2019m like, no, that\u2019s simple. And so there was this misbelief that was being directed towards legislation to say, well, they can all do it, no problem. I mean, Colorado, when we enacted our Wayfair law, we gave like a six, eight month pass to people.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:24:39 Judy:<\/b> We had a hearing. I mean, people were crying because they could not figure out how to collect the local taxes that are what we call statutory cities and counties. I mean, they weren\u2019t ready for that. They collected their own rate in their own city. They did not know they had to put a delivery rate on there. So that was tough on the small to medium business population, someone who does maybe candy or little flower baskets they might send out to people.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:25:04 Judy:<\/b> How would you manage that? Gift baskets? I mean, they can\u2019t without technology. And even then, they don\u2019t know how to set it up. So it was a big, herculean effort for even Colorado. So I will make sure to remember that. Maybe I call you to testify, because I have really tried to impress upon our legislators how important this is for business, because business is the one collecting the money, and you\u2019re putting all that on them.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:25:27 Judy:<\/b> And I know we pay a little bit each person, but little business doesn\u2019t have that. Large business doesn\u2019t have it. As you know, you got to be large enough to have an 80 person tax department. Nobody has that in a small and medium business world. And then I wanted to just add delivery fee. You guys got the delivery fee out there, right? Okay. I didn\u2019t know about it until April, before it was effective in July, and I was mortified that I did not know that. But Department of Revenue was tasked with enforcing it with a transportation bill that I wasn\u2019t made aware of through all the tax councils I\u2019m part of in Colorado. And my understanding from that was Department of Revenue didn\u2019t know how to enforce it or activate it, so they had to do all the back end it. I mean, you guys got on that quick. So how did you guys manage, like, that\u2019s crazy stuff, and that\u2019s going to happen more. We could see it coming.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:26:20 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Yeah. We actually have a lot of professional relationships with a lot of the Dors in our research group.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:26:27 Judy:<\/b> Little heads up.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:26:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We do yeah. So that\u2019s how we kind of knew about that.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:26:33 Judy:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s what I thought. I need to retire.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:26:36 Mike Bernard:<\/b> One other thing I would like to mention, too is, Meredith, we have been asked by a lot of the companies that they want us being vertex in there, trying to make things as responsible administratively, easy as we can for. So they expect us to actually show up and actually work with, say, the MTC and certain departments of revenue who are actually kind of moving through and maybe initiating some of these new programs.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:27:08 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so we actually have done that. But we do that normally behind the scenes or through private conversations. And that\u2019s normally how with professionals at the Dor who understand that we have a big presence within the transaction space. And so when we come in and we talk to them about some of these things, we actually have a lot of credibility and offer solutions around what they might be proposing.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:27:35 Mike Bernard:<\/b> All good work.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:27:37 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. Important work. Because you see the math years ago, the team that you work with, Dana Malberg and the sales tax co sourcing team or outsourcing team at Vertex, we had one at Deloitte, and I remember testifying before our Colorado department, our legislator, excuse me, about the removal of our discount and how material that was going to be to vendors like Verizon and very large multi state that are collecting a lot of sales tax, that 3% was going to cost them money, a lot of it. When we took that away from their remittances, and we\u2019ve kept it since. And so that was a big thing. Our department of Revenue or not, our department, our legislator, didn\u2019t understand because they wanted to recoup some money. And a fee is not a tax, but it was actually a tax benefit or a cost benefit to vendors to get a little money back for the cost of collection and enforcement and remittance.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:28:30 Judy:<\/b> And it was material to them. So it was not a simple, and then the biggest companies are taking the biggest cost and bearing the biggest risk. So the 3% was a nice little give back to at least give them some compensation for all that compliance they were creating for the state. But then that went away for a while because it was a fee and they could do it.<\/p>\n<p><b>0:28:52 Meredith:<\/b> This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended nor should it be relied upon as legal tax, accounting or investment advice. Should consult with a competent professional to discuss specifics of your situation and the applicability of the information presented.<\/p>\n\r\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-content--footer\">\r\n\t\t\t\t<a href=\"#\">\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<svg width=\"9\" height=\"11\" viewBox=\"0 0 9 11\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<path d=\"M0.5625 0.25C0.234375 0.25 0 0.507812 0 0.8125V1.375C0 1.70312 0.234375 1.9375 0.5625 1.9375H8.4375C8.74219 1.9375 9 1.70312 9 1.375V0.8125C9 0.507812 8.74219 0.25 8.4375 0.25H0.5625ZM2.10938 6.83594L3.65625 5.28906V10.1875C3.65625 10.5156 3.89062 10.75 4.21875 10.75H4.78125C5.08594 10.75 5.34375 10.5156 5.34375 10.1875V5.28906L6.86719 6.83594C7.10156 7.04688 7.45312 7.04688 7.66406 6.83594L8.0625 6.4375C8.27344 6.22656 8.27344 5.85156 8.0625 5.64062L4.89844 2.47656C4.66406 2.24219 4.3125 2.24219 4.10156 2.47656L0.914062 5.64062C0.703125 5.85156 0.703125 6.22656 0.914062 6.4375L1.3125 6.83594C1.52344 7.04688 1.89844 7.04688 2.10938 6.83594Z\" \/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<span class=\"fbxt-nav-text\">Scroll back to top<\/span>\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/a>\r\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-modal fbxt-email-signup\">\r\n\t\t\t\t<h4>\r\n\t\t\t\t\tSign up to receive email updates\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/h4>\r\n\t\t\t\t<p>\r\n\t\t\t\t\tEnter your name and email address below and I'll send you periodic updates about the podcast.\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/p>\r\n\t\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-email-response-text\"><\/div>\r\n\t\t\t\t<form class=\"fbxt-signup-form\">\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-name-fields\" style=\"display:none\">\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<input\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\ttype=\"text\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-first-name-input\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tplaceholder=\"First Name\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tstyle=\"display:none\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<input\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\ttype=\"text\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-last-name-input\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tplaceholder=\"Last Name\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tstyle=\"display:none\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<div class=\"fbxt-signup-fields\">\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<input\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-email-input\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\ttype=\"email\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tplaceholder=\"Your Email Address\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\/>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t<input \r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tclass=\"fbxt-email-action-button\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\ttype=\"button\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\tvalue=\"Subscribe\"\r\n\t\t\t\t\t\t\/>\r\n\t\t\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t\t\t<\/form>\r\n\t\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t\t<\/div>\r\n\t<\/div>\r\n\t<div class=\"fbxt-credits\" style=\"display: none\">\r\n\t\t<span>powered by<\/span>\r\n\t\t<a href=\"https:\/\/fusebox.fm\">\r\n\t\t\t<svg width=\"76\" height=\"16\" viewBox=\"0 0 76 16\" xmlns=\"http:\/\/www.w3.org\/2000\/svg\">\n<path d=\"M23.0886 7.93007H24.517V13.5888H26.3406V7.93007H28.1033V6.26029H26.3406V4.55959C26.3406 3.6474 26.9332 3.4464 27.2827 3.4464C27.7386 3.4464 28.0121 3.66286 28.0121 3.66286L28.6959 2.10131C28.6959 2.10131 28.1033 1.71478 27.1004 1.71478C25.9303 1.71478 24.517 2.42598 24.517 4.46682V6.26029H23.0886V7.93007Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M31.8294 13.7743C33.3034 13.7743 33.9872 12.522 33.9872 12.522V13.5888H35.6892V6.26029H33.8657V11.1459C33.8657 11.1459 33.3794 12.0427 32.4373 12.0427C31.5103 12.0427 31.0088 11.5788 31.0088 10.4966V6.26029H29.1853V11.0068C29.1853 12.7693 30.4466 13.7743 31.8294 13.7743Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M36.8435 12.4447C36.8435 12.4447 37.9832 13.7743 40.0954 13.7743C41.9342 13.7743 43.241 12.7693 43.241 11.517C43.241 10.0018 42.2229 9.52254 40.7945 9.21332C39.5788 8.95049 39.0925 8.84226 39.0925 8.3939C39.0925 7.94553 39.7156 7.69815 40.3994 7.69815C41.3719 7.69815 42.1925 8.33205 42.1925 8.33205L43.1043 6.97149C43.1043 6.97149 42.0253 6.07476 40.3994 6.07476C38.4239 6.07476 37.2994 7.21887 37.2994 8.36297C37.2994 9.75446 38.5455 10.3729 39.9739 10.6821C41.068 10.914 41.4023 11.0068 41.4023 11.4861C41.4023 11.9344 40.7793 12.1509 40.0347 12.1509C38.819 12.1509 37.8616 11.0996 37.8616 11.0996L36.8435 12.4447Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M47.5644 6.07476C45.4826 6.07476 43.9478 7.77546 43.9478 9.92453C43.9478 12.0736 45.6345 13.7743 47.8227 13.7743C49.5703 13.7743 50.71 12.7229 50.71 12.7229L49.7982 11.3315C49.7982 11.3315 49.084 12.0736 47.8227 12.0736C46.683 12.0736 45.9384 11.2387 45.8017 10.5893H51.181C51.1962 10.311 51.1962 10.0328 51.1962 9.8936C51.1962 7.63631 49.5399 6.07476 47.5644 6.07476ZM45.8017 9.24425C45.8625 8.59489 46.3943 7.76 47.5644 7.76C48.7649 7.76 49.3423 8.61035 49.3727 9.24425H45.8017Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M52.5383 13.5888H54.225V12.6302C54.225 12.6302 54.8481 13.7743 56.398 13.7743C58.2671 13.7743 59.9083 12.1818 59.9083 9.92453C59.9083 7.66723 58.2671 6.07476 56.398 6.07476C55.0304 6.07476 54.3618 7.03334 54.3618 7.03334V1.90031H52.5383V13.5888ZM54.3618 8.8268C54.3618 8.8268 54.8784 7.80638 56.0789 7.80638C57.3098 7.80638 58.0544 8.71857 58.0544 9.92453C58.0544 11.1305 57.3098 12.0427 56.0789 12.0427C54.8784 12.0427 54.3618 11.0223 54.3618 11.0223V8.8268Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M64.3915 6.07476C62.2489 6.07476 60.5469 7.76 60.5469 9.92453C60.5469 12.0736 62.2489 13.7743 64.3915 13.7743C66.5341 13.7743 68.2361 12.0736 68.2361 9.92453C68.2361 7.76 66.5341 6.07476 64.3915 6.07476ZM64.3915 12.0427C63.1606 12.0427 62.4008 11.0686 62.4008 9.92453C62.4008 8.78042 63.1606 7.80638 64.3915 7.80638C65.6224 7.80638 66.3822 8.78042 66.3822 9.92453C66.3822 11.0686 65.6224 12.0427 64.3915 12.0427Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M71.1828 9.80084L68.5083 13.5888H70.575L72.2009 11.0841L73.8269 13.5888H75.9999L73.3406 9.80084L75.848 6.26029H73.7661L72.3225 8.51758L70.8485 6.26029H68.7059L71.1828 9.80084Z\" \/>\n<path d=\"M3.34457 0.583843C4.10968 1.3623 4.10968 2.62442 3.34457 3.40288C3.2166 3.53308 3.07534 3.6415 2.92523 3.72814V13.035L8.90051 13.035V8.33442L4.95452 12.3492V0.990621H14.7632V12.2656C14.9174 12.3532 15.0624 12.4638 15.1935 12.5971C15.9586 13.3756 15.9586 14.6377 15.1935 15.4162C14.4284 16.1946 13.1879 16.1946 12.4227 15.4162C11.6576 14.6377 11.6576 13.3756 12.4227 12.5971C12.552 12.4657 12.6947 12.3564 12.8465 12.2693V2.94071H6.87119V7.64125L10.8172 3.62648L10.8172 14.9851L1.00855 14.985V3.73693C0.852708 3.64886 0.706164 3.53751 0.573838 3.40288C-0.191279 2.62442 -0.191279 1.3623 0.573838 0.583843C1.33895 -0.194614 2.57945 -0.194614 3.34457 0.583843Z\" \/>\n<\/svg>\n\r\n\t\t<\/a>\r\n\t<\/div>\r\n<\/div>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; admin_label=&#8221;Comments&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#FFFFFF&#8221; background_image=&#8221;https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/05\/podcast-01.png&#8221; parallax=&#8221;on&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; background_size__hover=&#8221;cover&#8221; background_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;cover&#8221;][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; text_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; header_2_font=&#8221;Lato|700|||||||&#8221; header_2_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; header_2_font_size=&#8221;52px&#8221; header_2_line_height=&#8221;1.2em&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; header_2_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; header_2_font_size_phone=&#8221;36px&#8221; header_2_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<h2>Related Episodes<\/h2>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; divider_weight=&#8221;5px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; max_width=&#8221;120px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row column_structure=&#8221;1_2,1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_button button_url=&#8221;https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/saltovation-making-sense-of-state-and-local-tax\/id1517450565&#8243; button_text=&#8221;Subscribe on Apple Podcasts&#8221; button_alignment=&#8221;left&#8221; button_alignment_tablet=&#8221;left&#8221; button_alignment_phone=&#8221;&#8221; button_alignment_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_button=&#8221;on&#8221; button_text_size=&#8221;14px&#8221; button_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; button_bg_color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; button_border_width=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_border_color=&#8221;rgba(255,255,255,0.1)&#8221; button_border_radius=&#8221;0px&#8221; button_letter_spacing=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_font=&#8221;Lato|700||on|||||&#8221; button_icon=&#8221;&#xe09e;||divi||400&#8243; button_on_hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;14px|30px|14px|30px|true|true&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover_enabled=&#8221;on|hover&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|40px|||true|false&#8221;][\/et_pb_button][\/et_pb_column][et_pb_column type=&#8221;1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_button button_url=&#8221;https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/show\/7M0RZGgWG8A2Vd4okyR2yc?si=umxHEOq4SbCRp4nLy7LBgA&#8221; button_text=&#8221;Subscribe on Apple Podcasts&#8221; button_alignment=&#8221;left&#8221; button_alignment_tablet=&#8221;left&#8221; button_alignment_phone=&#8221;&#8221; button_alignment_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.16&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_button=&#8221;on&#8221; button_text_size=&#8221;14px&#8221; button_text_color=&#8221;#003254&#8243; button_bg_color=&#8221;#A0CD46&#8243; button_border_width=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_border_color=&#8221;rgba(255,255,255,0.1)&#8221; button_border_radius=&#8221;0px&#8221; button_letter_spacing=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_font=&#8221;Lato|700||on|||||&#8221; button_icon=&#8221;&#xe0b5;||divi||400&#8243; button_on_hover=&#8221;off&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;14px|30px|14px|30px|true|true&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover_enabled=&#8221;on|hover&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|40px|||true|false&#8221;][\/et_pb_button][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section]\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Brad Scott, as the director of finance for a small business in Arizona, is a business leader advocating for sales tax simplicity. He discusses the challenges of sales tax compliance for small businesses post-Wayfair and proposes solutions for greater simplicity in tax policy.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":12984,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_et_pb_use_builder":"on","_et_pb_old_content":"","_et_gb_content_width":"2880","spt_transcript":"<b>0:00:00 Meredith:<\/b> Welcome to SALTovation. The SALTovation show is a podcast series featuring the leading voices in salt, where we talk about the issues and strategies to help you make sense of state and local tax. We want to welcome to the SALTovation show. Today Mike Bernard, chief tax officer at Vertex, a global provider of indirect tax software solutions founded almost 25 years ago. We want to discuss with Mike how Vertex stays up to date on the quickly changing landscape of indirect taxes and what they are keeping their eye on that could potentially upset and impact clients and taxpayers.\r\n<p><b>0:00:38 Meredith:<\/b> We will also discuss Mike\u2019s past roles as us tax counsel for Microsoft, a position where he had a front row seat to rapid changes in technology and how those changes impacted tax reporting. Thank you so much Mike, for being with us today. We really appreciate your time and your brain.\r\n<p><b>0:00:56 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Thank you, Meredith, for being here. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.\r\n<p><b>0:01:00 Meredith:<\/b> So what exactly does a chief tax officer do for a software company?\r\n<p><b>0:01:08 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. So I\u2019ve had two distinct roles. One when I was at Microsoft and then the other one that I\u2019ve had here at Vertex. So when I was at Microsoft, I actually was leading the functional tax department there, an extensive part of it. So essentially, it\u2019s probably easier just to say the two pieces that I probably wasn\u2019t responsible for. I wasn\u2019t responsible for the foreign subsidiaries, at least the day to day operations of that. And I wasn\u2019t responsible for the global tax policy issues. I was responsible for state tax policy issues.\r\n<p><b>0:01:41 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But everything else I was responsible for, for direct indirect running it, property taxes, business licenses, anything that you can imagine in terms of running a tax department. So that\u2019s essentially what I did for almost 28 years there when I came over to Vertex and Vertex was actually, we used them substantially when I was at Microsoft. And so the chief tax officer role here doesn\u2019t report up through the CFO, which normally chief tax officers do. I actually report into the executive leadership team.\r\n<p><b>0:02:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And what we do there is we actually have about four or five people in our group, senior tax people, either lawyers or accountants or cpas. And essentially what we do is we do a series of things. The most important thing we do is we host about 24 in person events per year with our customers. So we have a lot of enterprise customers, Fortune 200 or Fortune 500 customers, and we run basically kind of a half day program on tax, on what our product management roadmap looks like innovation, and then a lot of table topic discussions around serving them as a good customer, or obviously some best tips about how to keep their tech stack updated and current. So that\u2019s essentially what I did today. So I moved from serving just Microsoft for all of those years, and I had an opportunity to go and work in the transaction tax space, which I\u2019ve always loved, always enjoyed doing that, but also with this idea of emerging technology.\r\n<p><b>0:03:16 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So kind of two different careers, but obviously have enjoyed doing both of those things.\r\n<p><b>0:03:23 Judy:<\/b> How many people were you managing in the tax department for Microsoft? And I assume it was separated by issue, like you have a sales tax team, a property tax team and so forth. About how big was that department overall, aside from Global?\r\n<p><b>0:03:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. So overall, globally it was probably about 80. We had a pretty leveraged model at the time. So we used a lot of big four vendors to actually achieve a lot of things that we needed to get done, at least in the planning space. So the number of people that I was managing was around 35 or so. So I had about 30 sales and use tax and indirect people. I had a technology group, and then I also had folks who were actually doing the state and local returns, tax returns, and then the policy work.\r\n<p><b>0:04:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And then we had five or so people that were pure, just technologists that actually ran our tech stack. So about a range of about 35 or so.\r\n<p><b>0:04:23 Judy:<\/b> And what was the tech stack? Did you use Vertex?\r\n<p><b>0:04:27 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We did use vertex, yeah. That was our preferred provider. We did. We had some other ones too. Okay. And we had some other ones too. But interestingly enough, one of the things that. And we ran on SAP. So one of the interesting things about that that was the most learning that I really got around tech stack was when I was there, I actually did three implementations of vertex and one major. So I actually did a telecom integration because when we bought Skype, I actually had to put that in.\r\n<p><b>0:05:02 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And then we also pulled out the functionality for SAP, for VAT, for Europe. So we were one of the first five companies that actually did something like that. Tax engines were something, as you well know, SAP was a favored provider as it related to VAT calculations. But then that since has changed. So that was the second thing that I put in. The third thing that we put in was towards the last couple years that I was at Microsoft is for years and years you couldn\u2019t go to Microsoft and actually buy anything. You had to buy everything through a channel.\r\n<p><b>0:05:37 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So we actually built the backend functionality for our marketplace. So everything, if we were selling services or hardware or software or learning all of that, we built a back end for that. And then the last piece that I did was a major upgrade on a royalty sub. So in all of that learning, you really kind of learn between what the requirements are, how to serve the business. But then what\u2019s the best functioning tech stack that you can actually build to have, if you will, and you know this, to have kind of frictionless commerce for the customer.\r\n<p><b>0:06:14 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Great learning.\r\n<p><b>0:06:15 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. And anticipate what could happen. Right. And build something.\r\n<p><b>0:06:19 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly.\r\n<p><b>0:06:19 Judy:<\/b> Adapt with you. And then obviously you went from on prem to SaaS cloud that did not exist.\r\n<p><b>0:06:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We did. And you know what\u2019s really interesting today, too, is we\u2019ve got a lot of customers and they have an on prem solution. They have a cloud solution. They have mobile, they\u2019re selling through their own marketplace, and then they\u2019re selling through another marketplace. So there are just all these different platforms, as you know, that you never even envisioned that that was even going to happen.\r\n<p><b>0:06:49 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But clearly today technology has enabled all of those things and you got to be pretty nimble to move across all of those, mainly to kind of get all your data together so you can do proper tax reporting. So it\u2019s really challenging for a lot of the companies that we serve.\r\n<p><b>0:07:03 Judy:<\/b> Exactly. Assimilating the data to get the right reporting. Like this is a million comprised of all these pieces. Yeah, no, tech is tech. It\u2019s like, get it out, get it done. Oh, sales tax, whatever. Right. Or reporting. Don\u2019t know. Yeah, it\u2019s really important to understand that. So the reporting is accurate.\r\n<p><b>0:07:21 Meredith:<\/b> Exactly. With those technological shifts being at Microsoft in the leaving 28 years later, how has that kind of ability to be nimble and adapt to those huge technological swings that happened during that 28 year period, how has that kind of helped you, kind of, in your role at Vertex?\r\n<p><b>0:07:46 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Sure. I think one thing that I really have enjoyed being at Vertex, obviously at Microsoft, I had a lot of deep learning at Microsoft, and I talked about that a little earlier. But one thing that you really find out at Vertex when you serve a larger community of customers is that you have to come with this idea that they\u2019re all on their own technology journey. Nobody\u2019s ever the same, and they all have. And even though they may be in the retail business as an industry, or they may be in oil and gas, or they may be in leasing, or they may be in financial services, they\u2019re all at a different place as you move along their journey as to how technologically capable they are of serving not just their internal corporation, but their customers.\r\n<p><b>0:08:35 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so, if you will, you have to take them as they are and then just figure out, like, okay, now, where is it that you really want to go? And I think one of the things that is a common thread that runs through all of that, though, is we at Vertex when we\u2019re hired, we\u2019re there because they\u2019ve selected us to actually help them with their transaction, know their reporting and their tech stack. And so you really have to be very honest with them and understand what their systems are currently and what they\u2019re capable of actually doing moving forward and making themselves more compliant and derisking their environment altogether while at the same time serving their customers well and providing kind of a frictionless experience for their commerce. So you just have to keep in mind that they all move at their own pace.\r\n<p><b>0:09:27 Mike Bernard:<\/b> They all have different funding mechanisms, they have different capabilities just in terms of personnel, but overall, we\u2019re there to kind of help them move along as quickly and as efficiently as they can and.\r\n<p><b>0:09:39 Judy:<\/b> Establishing a good roadmap ahead of time. That I think a lot of other providers out there, they were connector focused, but the service and the technology was not well understood by the buyer. And so we just want to get that message out. And if anything, you buy technologically, you need to make sure it works for you today and tomorrow because ripping and replacing is expensive. But I think a lot of people like just get it done, get it in. Oh, I didn\u2019t think it did the thing because it\u2019s really hard to make all those decisions, especially the larger you are, the more places you\u2019re doing business it is.\r\n<p><b>0:10:11 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And I will tell you, in all of the implementations, the upgrades that I did at Microsoft, the one thing that we\u2019ve always focused on and then we\u2019ve always focused on with customers, and I\u2019ve told them this is we spend a lot of time upfront. Just what you said was about the fact you have to understand what your current system is and you have to understand what are the capabilities. Sometimes you already have capabilities within the current system to do the things you want, and we don\u2019t actually have to make those improvements or add things, modules on or things like that, but you really have to understand what your ERP is capable of doing and just really kind of working with it also, and the tax department obviously, in terms of providing the best and most efficient system. So a lot of time up front making sure we document what the system is capable of doing today.\r\n<p><b>0:11:00 Meredith:<\/b> Currently, I think that\u2019s a good reminder just in general that when you\u2019re kind of in a client service business, right, as vertex is, as we are, is that remembering that no one is the same, and that you do need to remember where people are at and meet them and kind of work with them in the capacity that they have, whether it\u2019s timing, staffing, technology, budget, that, yes, not everyone is the same, and that you need to treat all of the businesses and all of the people that you interact with as if they are their own unique entity, because that\u2019s exactly what they are.\r\n<p><b>0:11:41 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly. I\u2019ve run into engagements when I\u2019ve been here at Vertex where there\u2019s tremendous capabilities within tax and tremendous capabilities within it. And then I\u2019ve run into other companies where you thought they would have people who were more deeply knowledgeable about their tax or their it systems, and they\u2019re not. And so you always have to kind of gauge yourself and involve with them the ability to actually either move up or move down wherever they\u2019re at in that space and actually serve them the best that they can. And so some clients require more handheld type of service, and others, you can put things out there and give them a direction and then check back with them in a week, and they will have accomplished some of the things that they set out to do. So you really have to be very adaptable around all of these engagements.\r\n<p><b>0:12:32 Mike Bernard:<\/b> It\u2019s fun, it\u2019s exciting, and that\u2019s part of what makes it very dynamic.\r\n<p><b>0:12:37 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. And I think about the sales tax compliance team, I feel like a little bit that\u2019s maybe a little bit of a dying career path because there\u2019s a back end automated compliance. If you set up the front end, right, you could just review and not actually do all the returns. But from the legacy sales tax companies that collect sales tax, typically that was done by a human internally. And I was part of what we call the co sourcing movement at Deloitte, where we would take over part and parcel of different functions. And then part of that team went to vertex years ago when we sold it to part of know somewhere else.\r\n<p><b>0:13:10 Judy:<\/b> But I thought part of why we got people to use our service was because people could go on a vacation. All they did was file tax returns all month. Right. It was so many and so much volume and so much data coming in to actually file that return. People can leave between the end of the month and the 20th when those filings were done, and then it started over again. So you found that it was really even a staffing problem.\r\n<p><b>0:13:33 Judy:<\/b> Quite honestly, I found going to market with that for many years at Deloitte, so understanding the client\u2019s challenges, and then people need to go on vacation and have sick time and things happen. And so if you\u2019re really counting on that one human or two humans to do things and you don\u2019t cross train, you\u2019re really going to run up against problems when things are due. So it\u2019s interesting that you manage the manual filing right from the beginning, and then maybe that went to automation. Or you\u2019re like, these people are really good. They know what\u2019s going on this return.\r\n<p><b>0:14:02 Judy:<\/b> They could support my audit, I\u2019m going to keep them until they retire. So, yeah, it\u2019s really been an interesting transition, I think, in the workforce.\r\n<p><b>0:14:10 Mike Bernard:<\/b> No, I think you\u2019re spot on with that comment, because what you\u2019re describing is a single source of failure and a single source of success is what you\u2019re really describing there. And if you think of finance groups and you think of the CFO, one of the things that the CFO is supposed to do is supposed to automate things and derisk any kind of procedures or highly repeatable transactions or functions within the finance group, and that\u2019s one of them. And what was probably a bad term, say, ten years ago, of outsourcing your returns or having a provider do those returns, that was always kind of a scary thing for folks in the tax department today. It\u2019s like table stakes, and you have to actually take everything from everything that is sold to calculating it, or it\u2019s exempt, and then moving it through to the return and then actually storing it. And so all of those things just have to be done. They\u2019re required, and they actually fit the governance model much better than kind of the old way that you were describing there.\r\n<p><b>0:15:12 Judy:<\/b> Well, even for me, I would get a lot of offers to go in house and I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t want to prepare returns solely every month. I want to oversee, I want to manage audits, I want to provide strategic advice. So I could do that better by helping a lot of people than helping one person, unless I go to a very large multinational company. But then once again, you have a group and you have to silo it. And then I also felt like my skills could be helped.\r\n<p><b>0:15:34 Judy:<\/b> Use more. Across the nation, there\u2019s so many people that don\u2019t understand this, especially small to medium business. I mean, even zero to 100 million, they could still be privately held. So you\u2019ve got just a deep disconnect from information. And then even cfos, if you think about a CFO, they come out of the audit team. Typically, you hardly ever see a CFO with a tax background. So you\u2019ve just got a disconnect between the education.\r\n<p><b>0:15:55 Judy:<\/b> I have a master\u2019s of tax, never took a sales tax or state tax class. Federal only. Really? Why is that? Right. So even our education system has been catching up to the state tax, and yet you and I are impacted by that every single day with every transaction we make anywhere. Gas, food, clothing, lodging, rental cars, travel, consumption, taxes are everywhere. And I went to Europe last summer and 17% to 19%, I can\u2019t remember every single invoice that every single one, I\u2019m like 17 to 19 and we\u2019re complaining about eight to ten.\r\n<p><b>0:16:31 Judy:<\/b> Kind of interesting dichotomy that speaks of.\r\n<p><b>0:16:34 Meredith:<\/b> The dynamic nature that you had spoken about earlier. And kind of what we\u2019re seeing right now is the fast paced, just changes, right? Like Wayfair. We had 46 states come on board with wayfair and just things in the sales tax realm and maybe even the broader scope of tax in general. How does vertex stay on top of that fast paced change of rates, holidays, policy stuff that\u2019s happening particularly? I would imagine some stuff is going to come out of a lot of the legislative session this year, being it\u2019s a big kind of presidential election year. So how do you all stay up to date on that just dynamic nature of sales tax, as you all are kind of responsible for making sure that the right rate is being charged when it changes, however often in all of these jurisdictions?\r\n<p><b>0:17:30 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Yeah, so it\u2019s a really good question because every month what Vertex produces what\u2019s called an MDU, a monthly data update, and it is a file that is put out there so that our customers can go out and pull that file down, and it has all the updated rates and rules for that month. So that is just a core piece of our business. We\u2019ve done that now for over 45 years or so, and we\u2019ve never missed posting an update. Obviously, there are some things that kind of can change after the update is posted and we make some changes to that.\r\n<p><b>0:18:04 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So that is like a key piece of what we do. I managed a group for our letter group for a couple of years within Vertex called the tax research group, and we had 110 researchers globally who actually helped us actually keep all of those rates up to date. So if you bought a refrigerator in Seattle or you bought it in Connors, Georgia, or you bought it in Germany, our team was able to actually keep those rates kind of updated along the way.\r\n<p><b>0:18:33 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so we had a lot of research that was actually done using third party researching tools to kind of update that file every month. And I got to tell you, the folks that are in the research group, and this is like the really wonderful thing about them, is we just try to hire people who were either in accounting so they were in big four or they were in industry and they actually did sales tax compliance, or they just have a really good sales tax background. Maybe they worked for the government.\r\n<p><b>0:19:02 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Some of them actually worked in publishing. And they come over. So we have like four or five different varied sets of people who actually do all the research. And I will tell you this, when we go out and we visit with customers in these user groups, which I mentioned earlier, that is one of the folks that the users actually want to talk about first because they always want to know how we do it, and then they secondly also want to know. I think, Meredith, what you were saying was, well, what\u2019s on the horizon? What are the things you guys keep in your eyes on?\r\n<p><b>0:19:33 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And one of the things I think that we\u2019ve definitely tried to do is we have a list of things that we\u2019re looking at today, but there\u2019s also features that have to go into the software, too, say, like bundling. A lot of our customers sell bundles and so you have to pull those bundles apart and tax them properly. A number of them are starting to sell nfts, and so that\u2019s something that we\u2019re looking at. We\u2019re also following the things around crypto and what actually is crypto going to be taxed? And obviously, a lot of states have their eyes on crypto and the NFTs as a source of revenue for transaction tax purposes. So there\u2019s a lot of things that we continue to look at. But again, the core piece of what we\u2019re trying to do is get that monthly update out every month with accurate rates.\r\n<p><b>0:20:18 Judy:<\/b> And we use, we helped a client that sells like bullion gold coins because a lot of people invest in that. And is that currency or is that investment? And is very different across America. And so we help build that for a mitch, it\u2019s amazing what different companies do. You\u2019re like, who would have thought that was a whole business?\r\n<p><b>0:20:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Exactly.\r\n<p><b>0:20:41 Judy:<\/b> Oh, it\u2019s a thing. It\u2019s taxable, right. And of course, there\u2019s only one of them. It\u2019s not like there\u2019s thousands of these rare things. That\u2019s interesting. And they use vertex to deal their sales tax, so we help them kind of get through that. We\u2019ve done a couple of companies in that space.\r\n<p><b>0:20:58 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Great.\r\n<p><b>0:21:00 Meredith:<\/b> Does vertex tend to stay out of kind of policy or kind of lobbying in terms of like the digital ad tax is. That\u2019s footnote. That\u2019s not a policy of vertex. Those are just words that came out of my mouth. Don\u2019t want to get Mike in trouble, but is that something that vertex generally tends to stay silent on, or just kind of like in the background, keep your eye on some of these changes so that you can be ready to go once Maryland makes a decision.\r\n<p><b>0:21:30 Judy:<\/b> Yeah, sure.\r\n<p><b>0:21:32 Mike Bernard:<\/b> So where we try to be is obviously we\u2019re not trying to do direct lobbying around certain things about rates and rules, as you know, that leads to kind of like winners and losers. And we really can. I can\u2019t do that kind of work. What we tend to do is we always tend to think of administrative responsibility and administrative ease and efficiency. So I\u2019ll give you an example. For example, when Wayfair came down, one of the things that we did was we worked extensively with the MTC, the multi state tax commission, which I think a lot of the folks on the podcast kind of know. It\u2019s a group of government people.\r\n<p><b>0:22:09 Mike Bernard:<\/b> It\u2019s big four, it\u2019s companies, and then it\u2019s professional vendors like ourselves who we were advocating for the most administratively responsible and efficient way to actually see how marketplaces were actually. What were they going to be responsible for? Are they going to be responsible for collecting or emitting, for reporting, for audit defense, for all of the things that kind of went into the marketplace facilitator rules. And those rules actually got adopted over the next, say, four or five years.\r\n<p><b>0:22:39 Mike Bernard:<\/b> But the work that we were doing was trying to make it as efficiently as possible for customers who actually were hosting those kinds of marketplaces, third party marketplaces, and those who are actually selling on the third party of marketplaces. So that\u2019s one place where we\u2019re working at today. I think you know that today there is a multistate tax commission workflow on the sale of digital assets. So around 20 states actually tax, or there\u2019s a sales tax on streaming or learning or some kind of digital or audio or video assets that are sold across the Internet. So there are different approaches as to how sales taxes is imposed on that.\r\n<p><b>0:23:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> What\u2019s the jurisdiction that has the right to do that? So we\u2019re actually working with them, with the multitude tax commission again, to make sure that we have rules that actually are in place to really kind of help with the administrative piece of that. So that\u2019s really where we work know, at least in terms of, if you will, kind of lobbying. That\u2019s where we kind of place ourselves.\r\n<p><b>0:23:52 Judy:<\/b> So you wouldn\u2019t testify?\r\n<p><b>0:23:55 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We haven\u2019t been asked to testify on those things to date, but we\u2019ve always offered to actually do that if it\u2019s ever so. Yes.\r\n<p><b>0:24:05 Judy:<\/b> Well, I\u2019m on the Colorado governor\u2019s task force, a simplified Colorado sales tax. And it\u2019s funny, I thought, I want to say I asked because I\u2019m on the coalition, I sit on the task force, and it\u2019s like getting more people to explain because I believe our legislators at one point said, well, technology, you could just plug it in. It\u2019ll work. I\u2019m like, no, that\u2019s simple. And so there was this misbelief that was being directed towards legislation to say, well, they can all do it, no problem. I mean, Colorado, when we enacted our Wayfair law, we gave like a six, eight month pass to people.\r\n<p><b>0:24:39 Judy:<\/b> We had a hearing. I mean, people were crying because they could not figure out how to collect the local taxes that are what we call statutory cities and counties. I mean, they weren\u2019t ready for that. They collected their own rate in their own city. They did not know they had to put a delivery rate on there. So that was tough on the small to medium business population, someone who does maybe candy or little flower baskets they might send out to people.\r\n<p><b>0:25:04 Judy:<\/b> How would you manage that? Gift baskets? I mean, they can\u2019t without technology. And even then, they don\u2019t know how to set it up. So it was a big, herculean effort for even Colorado. So I will make sure to remember that. Maybe I call you to testify, because I have really tried to impress upon our legislators how important this is for business, because business is the one collecting the money, and you\u2019re putting all that on them.\r\n<p><b>0:25:27 Judy:<\/b> And I know we pay a little bit each person, but little business doesn\u2019t have that. Large business doesn\u2019t have it. As you know, you got to be large enough to have an 80 person tax department. Nobody has that in a small and medium business world. And then I wanted to just add delivery fee. You guys got the delivery fee out there, right? Okay. I didn\u2019t know about it until April, before it was effective in July, and I was mortified that I did not know that. But Department of Revenue was tasked with enforcing it with a transportation bill that I wasn\u2019t made aware of through all the tax councils I\u2019m part of in Colorado. And my understanding from that was Department of Revenue didn\u2019t know how to enforce it or activate it, so they had to do all the back end it. I mean, you guys got on that quick. So how did you guys manage, like, that\u2019s crazy stuff, and that\u2019s going to happen more. We could see it coming.\r\n<p><b>0:26:20 Mike Bernard:<\/b> Yeah. We actually have a lot of professional relationships with a lot of the Dors in our research group.\r\n<p><b>0:26:27 Judy:<\/b> Little heads up.\r\n<p><b>0:26:28 Mike Bernard:<\/b> We do yeah. So that\u2019s how we kind of knew about that.\r\n<p><b>0:26:33 Judy:<\/b> Yeah, that\u2019s what I thought. I need to retire.\r\n<p><b>0:26:36 Mike Bernard:<\/b> One other thing I would like to mention, too is, Meredith, we have been asked by a lot of the companies that they want us being vertex in there, trying to make things as responsible administratively, easy as we can for. So they expect us to actually show up and actually work with, say, the MTC and certain departments of revenue who are actually kind of moving through and maybe initiating some of these new programs.\r\n<p><b>0:27:08 Mike Bernard:<\/b> And so we actually have done that. But we do that normally behind the scenes or through private conversations. And that\u2019s normally how with professionals at the Dor who understand that we have a big presence within the transaction space. And so when we come in and we talk to them about some of these things, we actually have a lot of credibility and offer solutions around what they might be proposing.\r\n<p><b>0:27:35 Mike Bernard:<\/b> All good work.\r\n<p><b>0:27:37 Judy:<\/b> Yeah. Important work. Because you see the math years ago, the team that you work with, Dana Malberg and the sales tax co sourcing team or outsourcing team at Vertex, we had one at Deloitte, and I remember testifying before our Colorado department, our legislator, excuse me, about the removal of our discount and how material that was going to be to vendors like Verizon and very large multi state that are collecting a lot of sales tax, that 3% was going to cost them money, a lot of it. When we took that away from their remittances, and we\u2019ve kept it since. And so that was a big thing. Our department of Revenue or not, our department, our legislator, didn\u2019t understand because they wanted to recoup some money. And a fee is not a tax, but it was actually a tax benefit or a cost benefit to vendors to get a little money back for the cost of collection and enforcement and remittance.\r\n<p><b>0:28:30 Judy:<\/b> And it was material to them. So it was not a simple, and then the biggest companies are taking the biggest cost and bearing the biggest risk. So the 3% was a nice little give back to at least give them some compensation for all that compliance they were creating for the state. But then that went away for a while because it was a fee and they could do it.\r\n<p><b>0:28:52 Meredith:<\/b> This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended nor should it be relied upon as legal tax, accounting or investment advice. Should consult with a competent professional to discuss specifics of your situation and the applicability of the information presented.","footnotes":""},"categories":[723,229,226],"tags":[252,167,284,126,265,476,999,30,1007,80,141],"class_list":["post-12978","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-podcast","category-state-and-local","category-tax-news","tag-accountant","tag-california","tag-cfo","tag-cpa","tag-finance-professional","tag-franchise-tax","tag-public-law-86-272","tag-state-and-local-tax","tag-tax-cases","tag-tax-provider","tag-tax-returns"],"aioseo_notices":[],"jetpack_featured_media_url":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/2024\/02\/maxresdefault-5.jpg","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12978","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=12978"}],"version-history":[{"count":6,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12978\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":12985,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/12978\/revisions\/12985"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/12984"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=12978"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=12978"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/taxops.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=12978"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}